What timing are you tuning to?

#1
This may be a turbo tweak alky chip user only question, but others can chime in if applicable too...

I have yet to change timing through my turbo tweak chip. Currently and for many years been running 24+ish psi at 61psi Fuel Pressure at WOT.
Have 0-to 0.2-0.7-ish degree retard depending on ambient air temp @ WOT also. Always running denatured alky when running WOT. Last time at track ran several 11.90's to 12.10's at 115mph back to back.

also...stock cam, springs, unopened motor, stock heads, 62mm TB, THDP, big neck IC, open exhaust, 93 pump octane.

Was curious if playing with timing may help or hurt. The way the turbotweak chip came seems to have been perfect set-up. Sure as heck idles better.

So whats your timing setting? Turbo tweak alky chip factory installed program or your own setting and what is it?
 
#4
This may be a turbo tweak alky chip user only question, but others can chime in if applicable too...

I have yet to change timing through my turbo tweak chip. Currently and for many years been running 24+ish psi at 61psi Fuel Pressure at WOT.
Have 0-to 0.2-0.7-ish degree retard depending on ambient air temp @ WOT also. Always running denatured alky when running WOT. Last time at track ran several 11.90's to 12.10's at 115mph back to back.

also...stock cam, springs, unopened motor, stock heads, 62mm TB, THDP, big neck IC, open exhaust, 93 pump octane.

Was curious if playing with timing may help or hurt. The way the turbotweak chip came seems to have been perfect set-up. Sure as heck idles better.

So whats your timing setting? Turbo tweak alky chip factory installed program or your own setting and what is it?
Am i understanding this right, you are at 61psi fuel pressure at 24+ lbs boost at WOT? or are you talking about base fuel pressure?
I have to find the paperwork but i had Eric set the timing low , around 19/20 deg, i think it use to be the norm set set the timing as high as possible ( and some still do) but its not necessary ( or safe), the ability to +- fuel in the chip is the cats meow...
 

pont1230

Well-Known Member
#5
61 psi of fuel pressure at WOT seems a little low,Erick recommends to set the base fuel pressure at 43 psi +24 pounds of boost should bring you close to 67 psi on your fuel gauge at WOT,i thought the boost and fuel suppose to raise 1 to 1 .I would keep the timing 19/20 deg.
 
#6
I agree with the others, your fuel pressure seems a bit on the low side for wot.
What is you base fp set at? Eric usually requests the base fp to be close to 43psi. This could be why your seeing a tinkle of KR
I wouldn't touch the timing til I had the fp dialed in
 

2QUIK6

Well-Known Member
#7
With pump gas, 19 degrees at wot is about the max to be safe. With alky, well it depends on how much you are spraying and boost levels, and denatured vs pure methanol. Haven't played with any denatured, with pure mathanol I run about 22 degrees, alky turn on at 4 psi, full alky pressure at 12 psi, single nozzle and run the boost up to 24psi, 0 knock. It doesn't take much knock to really beat on the bearings. You won't probably blow a head gasket, but any sign of knock means the bearings are getting beat up since the detonation is trying to push the piston back down when its still needs to come up.
 

TTA976

Silver Member
#8
I had better luck with the 60#'s like you Shawn when I raised the FP at the rail to 44#. Surged a little at 41#'s. Bigger injectors can need a little more pressure. 60's are a great injector but they are still big. Eric lowers the duty cycle to make them work and work well with the chip.

You want the higher timing down low (1st/2nd) as you are building cylinder pressures. Then you want to timing to drop off Up Top (3rd-4th). This is when the most load is on the motor... After it's mashed for 12-13 seconds.

Safe would be 21*/19* , I would go any higher than that 131/131 (Scantool number). Many Top Turbo Buick guys run 18.5* up top.

Every car is different. 26# boost and 19* timing up top seems to work very in my car with alky. Boost over timing.

Hopefully Rich can chime in and explain.


Joe
 

WS6

Stay thirsty my friends
#9
Okay, so Joe threw up the bat signal, and it's subjective as to whether I'm batman or the Joker...either way I'll put my 2 pennies in.

First off, what I do when I order a chip is to ask for lower timing than what Eric would typically program, so for an alky chip I'll ask for 20/18 and from there I'll add timing as the engine responds or complains and leave it there.
Fueling is another issue and for another time.But the reason I ask for this is often in our 25 year old wiring there can be a blip of the 12Vs supplied to the ECM and that would reset the chip to it's default settings. Now, how I drive my car on the street and at the track is distinctly different and if the chip goes to default for some reason and I don't know that? then I'll be comfortable knowing I'm not going to push a gasket when I go WOT on a cool ,dense air, summer evening....but that's just me.

I'll address Shawn's issue later, but let's talk about detonation and pre-ignition, because they are 2 different things under the umbrella of "abnormal combustion".

Detonation happens AFTER the spark plug lights the mixture and a quickie explanation is that the plug sparks....the mixture begins to burn across the combustion chamber, ....heat and pressure begin to rise..... and for a variety of reasons the mixture at the other end of the combustion chamber spontaneously starts to burn and the two flame fronts begin to race toward one another...it is the sudden increase in cyl pressure that creates a resonance within the block and manifests as noise we hear as a knock or ringing and it is that noise that piezo electric knock sensor picks up and sends to the ESC module to be filtered by Hz and duration and as to whether it's real or to be ignored by and reacted to by the ECM.

So as the piston travels past TDC, the cylinder sees the point of peak cylinder pressure at 14* past TDC. So somewhere past ignition point and 14* ATDC the 2 pressure fronts collide and that is detonation....and is after the piston passes TDC. It is harmful but a little is not life threatening.....except in a boosted application...which is where we live, so I agree with Rob that the main bearings take the most abuse from detonation ,as the piston is forced harder downward on it's already downward stroke and our measly little cast cranks flex under the strain and couple that with cast 2 bolt caps??? well, it's not long till the babbit is worn and the copper layer is exposed on the bearing.
So, when you blow a HG it's a pretty safe bet that you hurt #2 and #3 bearing lower half(s)....to what extent? only an inspection will tell. Lots of guys blow HGs and replace them and never have an obvious bearing issue and that's great but my experience with many blown HGs has proven differently.
Now pre-ignition is just what it says, a start of the burn of the mixture before the spark plug lights it, and it can be from hot spots, to burnt exhaust valves, etc and an engine wont live but a couple seconds before it does catastrophic damage...that's a quick explanation but I really don't think it's part of this thread's discussion.

To Shawn's (Sp?) question? I agree that your FP is lagging and I'll also suggest that you put new valve springs in because it's been my experience that weak springs will cause some small detonation (real or false) at the big end of the track....yes, they begin to float and either cause mixture/combustion issues or just plain noise.

But It looks like your combo is pretty consistent at high 11's and that's not to shabby at all....you could add a degree or two in the 1/2 to help get you out of the hole, but I'd leave the 3/4 alone for now.
 
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#10
I had better luck with the 60#'s like you Shawn when I raised the FP at the rail to 44#. Surged a little at 41#'s. Bigger injectors can need a little more pressure. 60's are a great injector but they are still big. Eric lowers the duty cycle to make them work and work well with the chip.

You want the higher timing down low (1st/2nd) as you are building cylinder pressures. Then you want to timing to drop off Up Top (3rd-4th). This is when the most load is on the motor... After it's mashed for 12-13 seconds.

Safe would be 21*/19* , I would go any higher than that 131/131 (Scantool number). Many Top Turbo Buick guys run 18.5* up top.

Every car is different. 26# boost and 19* timing up top seems to work very in my car with alky. Boost over timing.

Hopefully Rich can chime in and explain.


Joe
Well Joe, i'm impressed; you are on the right track...:thumbup:
 

TT/Ameasap

Well-Known Member
#11
My stock longblock on a TA49 liked 22 in 1-2 and 21 in 3rd with Erics 1.1v chip. Your 02's will show a lean condition if your 02 is in good condition. Look at it at the top of 3rd gear on a WOT run.
If your running the stock turbo, you can run a little more timing to find where the sweet spot is.
My current combo I have run as high as 28° timing in 3rd and it felt like roughly 25-30 HP more. Minimal gains for increasing CP in my opinion. Increasing boost has always been better for my cars.
 

TTA976

Silver Member
#12
Okay, so Joe threw up the bat signal, and it's subjective as to whether I'm batman or the Joker...either way I'll put my 2 pennies in.
You know everything :boxing:

Your posts are like Bison's on TB.com. Gotta read it 2 or 3 times then I memorize it.

Joe
 

TTA976

Silver Member
#14
Your 02's will show a lean condition if your 02 is in good condition. Look at it at the top of 3rd gear on a WOT run.
Bo, my O2 would show 650 while my wideband read 11:3 a/r. Didnt like tuning off the oxygen sensor. Do you have a wideband Rat Fink? I tune to 11:3 up top.
I wouldnt go any leaner that on Alky. There was gains from 10:8 to 11:3 on my mph on the gtech on many of my tests. After 11:3 no gains..

Joe
 

TT/Ameasap

Well-Known Member
#15
Im just old school I guess.....I never had a problem tuning off 02 sensor and plugs. I always use Denso 02's... they are the best. Most of us couldnt afford OTC,turbo link, and such back years ago, but Julio, JD, myself and many others all used the 02 sensor to get a sense of tune. This is also pulling the plugs and reading them carefully. I still reference the 02 #'s vs my wideband in my car today. When im hammering on my car at WOT, im looking at the scanmaster 02's in 3rd for any lean signs and detonation but everyone is doing it different these days.
The position of one WB to the next can be off too. This will skew numbers from one person the next. Typically, the further back you mount the WB 02 the leaner it will show..Unless the exaust gasses are contained within solid joint connections(which is hard to do without welding).

With that said, WB at 10.8 would be safe as you stated Joe. Leaner is meaner with any of the cars I have owned. I have gone as far as 12.8-13.0 on E85 and felt major power in 1-2 gears. Didnt have balls to run that all out 3rd. but im still testing.
 
#16
Thanks for all the response everyone. Lots of great info.

I may try bumping the fuel a bit next time. Yes Joe, I have a Wide band. I feel like for 61psi @ WOT that it's just about there with my alky kit (my alky is older non progressive, comes in all at once at 18psi). The WB is showing 10.8 - 11.0 WOT. It's hard to watch all the gauges when doing a run, but I think that is right. As I keep saying, I need to log my runs to really know what's going on.
 
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