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Tuning Alchy with stock wastegate

2

2ltrex

Member
I'm trying to get my alchy to run with no knock.

The things i have done to the car are
pretty much stock stuff with Alchy.

FPR, Hot Wire, Scanmaster, K&N, TT chip for alchy.

Idle scan numbers are okay (BLMS, INT's, IAC). BLM's and INTs solid 128 after being warmed up. When cruising BLM's drop to around 122.

Fuel pressure reading 41psi with hose off.

Gauges i have are wideband, fuel pressure, and boost gauge.

I'm seeing around 2-4 degrees of knock at WOT from a 3rd gear roll (should the roll be done in overdrive or drive?). Doesn't seem to matter right now but may help with the troubleshooting.

Right now i have the stock wastegate in but i do have an adjustable one. I've just been trying to get it running at stock boost before upping the boost. For this reason i'm pretty sure i'm running rich up top (wideband reading low 10's).

Is it better to try and pull fuel up top with the stock wastegate in or should i just throw in the adjustable wastegate and up the boost? I'm not really looking to push it power wise right now. Just want it to be tuned safely.

I'm kind of hesitant to pull fuel as i'm getting some knock already. But for all i know it could be somekind of rich fuel knock.
 
2ltrex said:
I'm seeing around 2-4 degrees of knock at WOT from a 3rd gear roll (should the roll be done in overdrive or drive?).
Click to expand...

How much PSI when you see knock? What's your fuel pressure @WOT and what's you AFR gauge telling you @ WOT? Also, what octane gas?

2-4 degrees doesn't sound too bad to me, seen worse before letting out.

3rd gear puts more load on the motor than from a stop/dig. You see any knock from a 1st gear start?
 
Do the 3rd gear roll in drive not overdrive, that way the car won't shift into fourth. I think 4* knock is too much. Put the adjustable waste gate on. Tune for 11.5 AFR and zero knock. Be sure your alky system is operating correctly with the test button. I don't think your getting knock with an AFR of 10.0. That's very rich.
 
RatFink said:
How much PSI when you see knock? What's your fuel pressure @WOT and what's you AFR gauge telling you @ WOT? Also, what octane gas?

2-4 degrees doesn't sound too bad to me, seen worse before letting out.

3rd gear puts more load on the motor than from a stop/dig. You see any knock from a 1st gear start?
Click to expand...

Boost gauge is reading around 16psi and fuel pressure a little over 60psi. Wideband is reading 10.0 at WOT. This is with 91 octane and alchy control system. I do seem to get differing opinions on what knock is acceptable. I bought the kit from John Pearcy along time ago and he said the same thing. Some knock is ok. I've been seeing stuff about LED's on the alchy kit turning green. I don't think ive ever seen mine do that. It turns red but i don't think i have ever seen it turn green (nothing in the instructions i got with the kit mention anything like that). At idle i push the test button and the car does stumble so i believe it is spraying.

From a dig i still get the knock.
 
jarredsoon said:
Do the 3rd gear roll in drive not overdrive, that way the car won't shift into fourth. I think 4* knock is too much. Put the adjustable waste gate on. Tune for 11.5 AFR and zero knock. Be sure your alky system is operating correctly with the test button. I don't think your getting knock with an AFR of 10.0. That's very rich.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing when i do this i start at the minimum boost setting and then pull out fuel to compensate for the lower boost setting?

I also recently pulled the plugs and changed the fuel filter. Did a compression check (always do this when a change plugs) and was reading 150 +/- 2psi across the board.

I'm hoping its just a false knock but am not counting anything out. Headgaskets always seem to be a major concern with these cars.

Car has ~40k miles and i've had it since 28k miles (about 8yrs).
 
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I know opinions vary, but it is my opinion that you need to see no knock...ever. A lofty goal? yes, but many do it. When you see knock retard the ECM's attack rate is steep and recovery rate is considerablly slower. Meaning you're leaving H.P. on the table...period.

While I can see "false knock" as reasonable explanation on a hard launch, it's been my experience that KR ,in 3rd gear, under load, from 45-100MPH+ is never false. And I have a few blown HG's from the " false knock" theory to prove it.

While I'm unsure about "rich knock" theory, And I acknowledge alot of much smarter than me TB guys say it's possible. I guess that it has not been explained to me the how and why's of that theory.

You're on the right track and you're testing methods are solid, but if I had to guess based on what you're telling us is that maybe you're alky is not spraying fully.If your alky LED is not turning green then it's not seeing a 50 psi pump head pressure. So verify that, and if it's not then that's the issue, not enoughy alky and genuine KR using 91 octane pump gas.

You could always pull timing across the board by 2-3* and see if it goes away or lessons, and I bet even with pulled timing it will pull better if it's not knocking.

BTW, every genuine KR event weakens the HG,it starts eating away at the composite material till the fire ring becomes unsupported. Then one day you'll say "how did the HG blow?, it only had 4* of KR?"


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Maybe I missed it, but what Alky Kit are you running.

Also, use the TT chip adjustments to your advantage before messing with boost/FP. I'd say baseline those 2 and then adjust within the chip as necessary.

But above all, ensure the Alky Kit is performing its duties. How old is the kit/how much use has it seen. You say the car stumbles when you hit the "Test" button, but this doesn't mean that the pump isn't going bad and weakening. On the Intake pipe side, remove the line running from Alky tank to the intake pipe and have someone hit the test button as you watch to see how strong the stream is.

I have an old SMC Kit, my pump slowly took a turn for the worse, finally one day I did what I described above and there was alky coming out, but very weakly, so it all made sense to me why I had an issue once I seen that.
 
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I get a new alky pump every two years. The pump weakens over time and as stated above it can slowly get weaker and weaker until one day BOOOM. I really think you should tune for ZERO knock, esp with stock head gaskets, if they blow the composite material gets everywhere and is a mess to clean up. You must have an old alky kit. I would upgrade to a new alky control kit, since it sounds like you need a new pump anyway. This kit comes with fail safe mechanisms to reduce the chance of a failure. Such as the red light/green light. With mine I got the alky gauge that shows me how much alky psi is spraying. It has a recall button so I don't always have to have my eye on it.

Good Luck.
 
The kit i have is Razors. Going to contact him and see if any older kits were made with different led's. I'd say the kit sat around in the closet for a few years before i actually installed it. Had it installed about 3yrs ago but really had not driven it much until the last year. Mostly because i knew some tuning was going to be involved. I've had to drive it a little more the past year or so. Just been babying it staying out of boost until i can get things sorted out.

The alchy spray gauge would be nice. But damn, i just spent some nice pennies getting a 3 gauge pillar installed. Is the new alchy control gauge mounted in the car or under the hood?
 
yeah get the pump rebuilt if it has been sitting long term with methanol in it. I always pump out the meth and replace it with water while my car sits for the winter.
 
Ah that stinks. Guess i will put the 91 octane tt chip back in and see how that goes until i can get the pump pulled out and sent back.

91 octane chip was programmed for different injectors (stock vs 30lb lucas injectors). Will i be able to tune that in? Or should i just get another chip in the meantime.

Its funny how i can go through me emails from long ago. Almost like a diary. But i even had 2-4 degrees of knock back then with the 91 chip long ago. Thats why i went to the alchy.

Quote from TT email 2005:"
It's difficult for any car on pump gas to always show zero on knock,
especially on 91 octane. A few degrees, 2-4 sometimes is pretty typical.
For the low blm's, those won't hurt anything as long as they're not
bottomed out at 105. You can reduce fuel pressure a couple psi to help
bring them up. Also, do you have 1 or 2 screens in the MAF? If you have
2, removing 1 will also help the blm's."

Anyone had luck with 0 knock on 91octane and a properly tuned chip?
 
2ltrex said:
Anyone had luck with 0 knock on 91octane and a properly tuned chip?
Click to expand...

Yes, combo prolly a bit different from yours though. It was also a cool nice evening.

TT alky chip, CPT-BB61, 60 mototron Inj., SMC non-progressive alky,
fuel pressure 61 psi @ WOT, 23psi of boost.

Also, for curiosity I tried turning the boost down to 20psi and turned the alky OFF. No knock. Again it was a crispy fall evening, so that helped.

Also, I wouldn't run any other injector that didn't have a chip programmed specifically for them. JMO.
 
if this is not your daily driver I would just get a new pump and wait for it. It wont take long for Razor to send you one.
 
RatFink said:
Yes, combo prolly a bit different from yours though. It was also a cool nice evening.

TT alky chip, CPT-BB61, 60 mototron Inj., SMC non-progressive alky,
fuel pressure 61 psi @ WOT, 23psi of boost.

Also, for curiosity I tried turning the boost down to 20psi and turned the alky OFF. No knock. Again it was a crispy fall evening, so that helped.

Also, I wouldn't run any other injector that didn't have a chip programmed specifically for them. JMO.
Click to expand...

Holy cow! 20psi and no alchy. I'm jealous. I know even stock cars seem to vary a lot. There are alot of variables and these cars seem to be very picky/finicky.
 
jarredsoon said:
if this is not your daily driver I would just get a new pump and wait for it. It wont take long for Razor to send you one.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it is my daily driver on 3 month rotations with my buick. Daily driver went out of commission over a year ago. Still trying to get that situation under control.

So right now just trying to keep it safe. Don't live very far from work (~4miles) and staying out of boost.

Just found out from Julio that the kit i got does not have the colored LED. It was a feature that was added late 2005. He did suggest sending it in every 2-3 years for service so thats what i will be doing. I missed the memo on servicing these things. I know looking back it makes sense, but never came across anything until now that mentions servicing. Sounds like he has made a few nice upgrades also (gauges, tester, and led's). I've been assuming the tester button was a good way to test if the system is working. I'm probably going to wait until i get things straightened out with my daily driver situation thought and get a tamer TT chip from Eric. I'm guessing i should even just try to get that one working knock free.

Thanks guys for reeling me in with knock situation. I could have easily assumed it was false knock. Hopefully running stock boost levels saved my car.
 
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RatFink said:
No truer words have been spoke!

That's cool that your Daily D'ing these rides. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Maybe a stupid question, but is partial throttle knock an issue? I mean if i want to ease into it, is it actually worse than just flooring it?

If it never goes into PE mode because of partial throttle, seems like it may get some knock.

I talked to Eric, and he said that i can just reduce the timing on my alchy chip and run stock boost levels without the alchy. So i'm trying that also.
 
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