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oil additives on a Turbo car

kidsixpack

kidsixpack

Silver Member
Are ther any adverse affect of using oil additives on turbo charged cars. I use lucas in almost everything. Good idea or not so good? Anyone ever had any problems? What oil do you run in your TTA?
KID
 
I run Mobil 1 10W30, add a bottle of STP-red additive and a Napa 1086 filter. Done this twice now - no issues here.
 
I use Lucas cam break in oil additive it has high zinc for flat tappats. Not sure if it works since I always have some sort of issue, but maybe it my driving that causes the issues
 
gatorlance said:
I run Mobil 1 10W30, add a bottle of STP-red additive and a Napa 1086 filter. Done this twice now - no issues here.
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Be careful with that red STP. Last I heard they pulled the zinc content out of it that it use to have. I use to run that same combo in my TTA and I stopped when the red STP started to disappear from the stores.

Rule of thumb is anything you can buy over the counter or on a shelf is missing the zinc these flat tappet cams need!

Comp Cams has many great selections for our flat tappet cars now.

One option is your favorite pick of engine oil and then add this....

http://www.compcams.com/WhatsNew/Files/COMPEngineBreak-InOilAdditive.pdf

Now most guys would say "hey that's break in additive only for a break in of a new engine." but just read the last line in the "Quick Summary" box on that link! :whistle:

Comp Cams also offers another all around "engine break in oil" and it comes in 10w30 - 15w50

http://www.compperformancegroupstor...tore_Code=CC&Product_Code=1590&Category_Code=

And then they also offer this...

http://www.compperformancegroupstor...tore_Code=CC&Product_Code=1594&Category_Code=

The reason I like Comp Cams products is because what is the big worry we all have with this zinc issue? Wiping a cam lobe. Well Comp Cams is in the business of selling cams so I'm sure this stuff was tested over and over for minimal wear on the cams as they must offer a product to protect their flat tappet cams they sell!

I had oil tests done and it was 3003 PPM zinc content! So it does work and works well.

If I'm not running Comp Cams products I'm running Brad Penn with half a bottle of ZZDP. I like running Brad Penn because of the quality of oil it is and it's local to me :cheers:
 
Oil is one of those things that everyone has their own opinion. I've heard everything from running the top of the line oil and best additives, to just running diesel Rotella oil, both coming from people who are very well known in building LC2s. For most of us, it doesn't make a difference IMO. We change our oil at less than 3k miles so it never even begins to break down from shear. Personally, I used to use Mobil 1 synthetic since it's what came in the car, now I throw in whatever I feel like buying at the time (lately Rotella, it's cheap). If my motor blows up, there's about a 0.1% chance that it's because of the oil that I'm using, but I always just say buy what makes you feel comfortable.
 
72firebird said:
Oil is one of those things that everyone has their own opinion. I've heard everything from running the top of the line oil and best additives, to just running diesel Rotella oil, both coming from people who are very well known in building LC2s. For most of us, it doesn't make a difference IMO. We change our oil at less than 3k miles so it never even begins to break down from shear. Personally, I used to use Mobil 1 synthetic since it's what came in the car, now I throw in whatever I feel like buying at the time (lately Rotella, it's cheap). If my motor blows up, there's about a 0.1% chance that it's because of the oil that I'm using, but I always just say buy what makes you feel comfortable.
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Well keep in mind this is the "old" way of thinking when it comes to oils and additives. Zinc is Zinc and if it's missing from the oil you use in the car your going to have wear no matter how you look at it. Rotella T has no zinc in it any more. They changed the style of the bottle a few years back and that's when they pulled the zinc. Friction is friction and wear is wear. You need zinc to stop that. Sure if you drive the car like a little old lady and only put a few miles on it a year you can most likely get away with any oil. But if your going to get into it and get the internal parts heated up and cause some friction you better have some zinc or that flat tapped cam is going to have some round lobes in no time. It seems out of all the internal engine parts, the lack of zinc murders the cam lobes on these cars more then anything.

I've talked to several engine re-builders about zinc and the importance of it. He told me 90% of all the flat tapped engines he does he is finding cam lobes wiped all the time in them. More now then ever in the past. Keep in mind you can take a cam lobe damn near all the way down to round and not feel it in the performance of the car. But your making metal inside the engine and creating wear. It's one of those things that if you take the car to the track every so many years and wonder why it keeps going slower down the 1/4 mile. The latest theory was go roller cam and you don't have to worry about it anymore. Well now they are seeing wear in roller cams due to the lack of zinc in the oils. So do your engine a favor and add some ZDDP on top of whatever your favorite oil is. Half a bottle every change is all you need in most cases. :yes:
 
PhillyTurboSix said:
Keep in mind you can take a cam lobe damn near all the way down to round and not feel it in the performance of the car.
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Jim....seriously now... by the time a lobe starts going down .10 it would clatter because it gains lash. I can't imagine the noise it would make if the lobe was gone. And it certainly would have dead miss and idle like crap. I've wiped a couple lobes and you couldn't see it with the naked eye, but could measure it with mics. It ticked terrible too and shook with the miss it developed.

Half a bottle every change is all you need in most cases. :yes:
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Do this at your own peril! I've read and been told that ZDDP is the sacrifical component in the oil and it goes away(gets used up) with use. Why not use the whole bottle? it's only $8 a bottle.

I also think Jared is spot on in his analysis.


And Jim? you should be posting those videos from BPG of Jason taking his dad's GN down the track with the on and in car camera!!!
 
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WS6 said:
Jim....seriously now... by the time a lobe starts going down .10 it would clatter because it gains lash. I can't imagine the noise it would make if the lobe was gone. And it certainly would have dead miss and idle like crap. I've wiped a couple lobes and you couldn't see it with the naked eye, but could measure it with mics. It ticked terrible too and shook with the miss it developed.
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I've talked to 3 local turbo Buick engine builders. They told me since the zinc has been removed from the oil, EVERY rebuild that comes in has cam lobe damage. Some worse then others. The ones that look ok are guys who were running a zinc additive. This is from engine builders. Not one cars issues but hundreds of them.

If that don't seal the deal this will....
A local friend got the bug to build a sub 10 second GN doing it first class all the way. The car was a semi stock GN with under 60K original miles on it. He replaced everything but the block. While talking to the engine builder he said the cam lobes were going on the cam. While the car ran fine with no signs of a bad cam. This again is from a turbo Buick engine builder who has built thousands of engines over the years. For the cost of ZDDP my point here is just put the stuff in your oil and you don't have to worry about bad your lash is getting.


WS6 said:
Do this at your own peril! I've read and been told that ZDDP is the sacrifical component in the oil and it goes away(gets used up) with use. Why not use the whole bottle? it's only $8 a bottle.
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I don't use the entire bottle because the entire bottle is NOT needed. Half a bottle and Brad Penn puts me right up around 1900 PPM. Plenty of zinc to keep the wear down to a minimal and what is needed for a flat tappet cam to keep it happy. Keep in mind you do need some kinda wear and too much zinc is over kill and a waste. Using half a bottle a case lasts me forever.
 
The use of zinc additives is not a point of contention with me, but rather the inability to notice one has a lobe going away. If a lobe is disintegrating the torque to lash setting gets loose and noisy....and early on in the damage.

There is also other factors to consider in premature cam failure; improperly hardened camshafts, cheap aftermarket lifters. Guys who run waaaaayyy to aggressive cam profiles for street cars and then get talked into valve springs with too high open seat pressures.And I think the later is more often the culprit than using poor oil or lack of zinc.

You see it all the time, guys with valve springs installed on flat tappet cams that have spring pressure numbers the roller cams run, all in the name of high RPM reliability, when the reality is thier cars rarely spin over 5K. More often than not these fellas are crippled before they even know it.

I'm just sayin' if one chooses a reasonable cam profile and runs cam manufacturer suggested spring pressures and does the proper break in procedure including using a ZDDP product all the time, a flat tappet cam will live a long and healthy life.


just sayin'
...
 
echostatic said:
Maybe they will just put the darned zinc back in the oil if it gets bad enough...
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Wellllllll Taking the zinc out is better for the air quality and keeps air pollution down in the world or so they think. So it's not about what's good for the cars it's about what they "think" makes the air a little more clean we breath. So those odds are down to about 0 of zinc coming back in the oils! :censor:
 
WS6 said:
The use of zinc additives is not a point of contention with me, but rather the inability to notice one has a lobe going away. If a lobe is disintegrating the torque to lash setting gets loose and noisy....and early on in the damage.

There is also other factors to consider in premature cam failure; improperly hardened camshafts, cheap aftermarket lifters. Guys who run waaaaayyy to aggressive cam profiles for street cars and then get talked into valve springs with too high open seat pressures.And I think the later is more often the culprit than using poor oil or lack of zinc.

You see it all the time, guys with valve springs installed on flat tappet cams that have spring pressure numbers the roller cams run, all in the name of high RPM reliability, when the reality is thier cars rarely spin over 5K. More often than not these fellas are crippled before they even know it.

I'm just sayin' if one chooses a reasonable cam profile and runs cam manufacturer suggested spring pressures and does the proper break in procedure including using a ZDDP product all the time, a flat tappet cam will live a long and healthy life.


just sayin'
...
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Agreed 100% on all points said there for sure. But I think 80% if not more of the guys on here have stock TTA's and are just looking for a product to toss into the yearly oil change to keep the stock flat tappet cams happy! You can't go wrong with ZDDP and off the shelf oil!
 
You can thank the tree hugging liberals for the change in oils. The new oils emit less emissions. Hence the new CJ4 formula.
 
PhillyTurboSix said:
Agreed 100% on all points said there for sure. But I think 80% if not more of the guys on here have stock TTA's and are just looking for a product to toss into the yearly oil change to keep the stock flat tappet cams happy! You can't go wrong with ZDDP and off the shelf oil!
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X5!!!!!!

All of the new cars don't need the zinc since they were designed around that. I am not sure I believe that roller cams have shown wear because of less zinc. Doesn't make sense. I believe you can wipe a roller cam, but I bet a lot of it has to do with valvespring pressure.
 
I'm scouring my hard papers for an article I read about why zinc was removed from off the shelf oils. And if I remember correctly it was because the fed mandated(as they always do) that catalytic convertors must last 100K miles and be warranteed as such. So it is known that zinc/phosphate,as combustion chamber by product, wreak havoc on the convertors long before 100K miles.
 
Agree with WS6, the reason they pulled the Zinc phosphate compound out was they found it was the prime culprit for clogging up the cat. At least that is what I read sometime back...then again, it could be a "BIG 3" and oil company conspiracy to get the cars back in the shop quicker. There is a website Bob the Oil guy and there is quite a bit of information about which oil cantains what properties but controversial and there are other independant sites which could be useful info. Nothing is better than Brad Penn Green Oil IMHO, it roots back for us old timers when Pennsylvania Crude Oil really meant something.
 
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kidsixpack said:
Are ther any adverse affect of using oil additives on turbo charged cars. I use lucas in almost everything. Good idea or not so good? Anyone ever had any problems? What oil do you run in your TTA?
KID
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Hi KID,

Here's some tips for you -
I have used Havoline 30 weight for many years. The chemicals in multi weight oils is what causes coking.
Do not use racing oil unless you are removing your cat. The Phosphorus in it will kill the cat.
You should change your oil when the oil gets darker than honey, which is very frequent. These are turbo motors and the oil gets dirty long before the oil loses it's lubricating qualities and you don't want dirty oil going thru your turbo.
The main reason for cam problems isn't lubrication it's to much open spring pressure. These are not 350 chevys.
You can spend all the money you want, it's your money but, you still need to change the oil and filter way more than a normally asperated motor no mater if you use royal purple, mobil 1 or any other high dollar synthetic.
I think WS6 has a very good grasp on this.
What is not generally known is, these oil producers are really just marketing companies. They have a base oil and they by all the additives from companies like the 1 I worked for, Lubrizol. The 2 main oils LZ produces for is Mobil and Quackerstate. As I recall, Valvoline and Pennzoil along with others.
I'm sure I'll catch a lot of flac from this but what's new?

Just saying
 
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