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Anyone else scared of national health care?
- Thread starter Quiky One
- Start date
roadkill73
Well-Known Member
And just think when Obama legalizes the illegals, they will be entitled to it too. And one more thing nobody realizes. Once the 12 or 15 millions illegals become legal, they will be American citizens and have a right to sponser family members in thier home country and bring them here. Now it will be 45 or 50 million. God bless America, oh sorry, not suppose to say God according to the liberals.
How did I get off the subject, sorry.
How did I get off the subject, sorry.
Rodimus_Prime
Well-Known Member
well its absurd that getting something as simple as a visit to the emergency room because you think your having a heart attack 1200 dollars to the insurance company
Cost is the problem, the reason many people are in debt is because of medical bills.
You can't regulate the industry because then the right wingers cry socialism and bigger government, while the common man is raped for a simple doctor visit and the doctor lives in his 750,000 dollar home. Yet somehow taxpayers get stuck with the bill for illegal immigrants that visit hospitals.
If we can pay for people that aren't even our own citizens whats the problem with taking care of our own people? Its not the land of opportunity for everyone. When you allow doctors, lawyers and drug companies to run the country, this is what happens.
Cost is the problem, the reason many people are in debt is because of medical bills.
You can't regulate the industry because then the right wingers cry socialism and bigger government, while the common man is raped for a simple doctor visit and the doctor lives in his 750,000 dollar home. Yet somehow taxpayers get stuck with the bill for illegal immigrants that visit hospitals.
If we can pay for people that aren't even our own citizens whats the problem with taking care of our own people? Its not the land of opportunity for everyone. When you allow doctors, lawyers and drug companies to run the country, this is what happens.
You just wait and see the level of "care" they're given. If you want a little precursor, go down to the VA hospital and see how f*cking good the care is there!
:furious::furious::furious::furious:
I live in Germany as an American, so I get the opportunity to observe national health care. It actually seems to work quite well over here. I haven't met a German yet that's worried about their health because of what it will cost them to get care.
Realistically that's actually a piece of freedom!
It's the fear of new and unknown that gets people not wanting something new.
Realistically that's actually a piece of freedom!
It's the fear of new and unknown that gets people not wanting something new.
I worry about the good doctors retiring, medical technology places not coming out with advanced testers (why improve if they won't get paid?), pharmaceutical companies not improving upon the drugs, and the level of healthcare we will receive...
Someone has to pay for this and it isn't going to be the poor people. Wonder why?
The common man who pays 1200 for a doctor visit is paying for the 3 people who don't pay their bills...IE people who don't want insurance, illegals who WON'T pay for it, the 22 year old who says they are healthy right until they wrap their car around a tree and incur THOUSANDS of dollars of bills they will never repay.
Someone has to pay for this and it isn't going to be the poor people. Wonder why?
The common man who pays 1200 for a doctor visit is paying for the 3 people who don't pay their bills...IE people who don't want insurance, illegals who WON'T pay for it, the 22 year old who says they are healthy right until they wrap their car around a tree and incur THOUSANDS of dollars of bills they will never repay.
michbc3
Well-Known Member
I have a few cousins that have been losers all their life, addicted to drugs, selling, etc. I don't want to provide for their health care. They make/made their choices to the point that they are total parasites - and need to suffer the consequences, not get subsidies from me and you.
Additionally, if I need to use a hospital bed some day and can't get in because one of these parasites are in it, (again at my expense), is that really fair?
I'm not afraid of change. I AM afraid of widespread socialism taking over my country where the parasites get to suck off of the productive people in society throuh the power of government.
Additionally, if I need to use a hospital bed some day and can't get in because one of these parasites are in it, (again at my expense), is that really fair?
I'm not afraid of change. I AM afraid of widespread socialism taking over my country where the parasites get to suck off of the productive people in society throuh the power of government.
WS6
Stay thirsty my friends
I rented to a German national a couple years ago. She was 24 or so and had grown up only knowing socialized medicine and the central planned way of life.
Early on she had the typical euro view that Americans are stupid,overweight and that capitolism is sooo pedestrian as to not even acknowledge it.
...that is... till she got pregnant with her second child(first in Germany)...She was absolutely flabergasted that she had an obstrician that was with her through the entire pregnancy....and even knew her by name. She couldn't understand how our free market health care could provide a doctor, whom she would call for an unscheduled appointment, could see within 48 hours.
Guess what she thinks of us now...and where she has applied for citizenship.
Her husband tells us that she doesn't call baseball "stupid" anymore either.
And a quick observation and then off the soapbox. Whining about others accomplishments and thier right to earn as much as the market dictates only shows the failures of the whiner.
...
Early on she had the typical euro view that Americans are stupid,overweight and that capitolism is sooo pedestrian as to not even acknowledge it.
...that is... till she got pregnant with her second child(first in Germany)...She was absolutely flabergasted that she had an obstrician that was with her through the entire pregnancy....and even knew her by name. She couldn't understand how our free market health care could provide a doctor, whom she would call for an unscheduled appointment, could see within 48 hours.
Guess what she thinks of us now...and where she has applied for citizenship.
Her husband tells us that she doesn't call baseball "stupid" anymore either.
And a quick observation and then off the soapbox. Whining about others accomplishments and thier right to earn as much as the market dictates only shows the failures of the whiner.
...
WH1_T-type
Active Member
Here's something to think about.
I am active duty Navy: my health care is decent.
Wife/kids dependents: health care is...OK
Retiree's like my dad: NOT GOOD
See the trend? The farther away from active duty a person is, the worse the Gov run health care is. Civilians under a 'national' plan will be as far from active duty as they can get...the are NOT going to like the way it is run.
I am active duty Navy: my health care is decent.
Wife/kids dependents: health care is...OK
Retiree's like my dad: NOT GOOD
See the trend? The farther away from active duty a person is, the worse the Gov run health care is. Civilians under a 'national' plan will be as far from active duty as they can get...the are NOT going to like the way it is run.
TTA 1077
Well-Known Member
In a perfect world (or country) this world be great, but were not in a perfect world. You have to really think before you act now. We are paying the price for the whole "Change" line last November. I wanted it too and now I’m not convinced. Between Bush and Obama my grand kids will still be paying down a trillion dollar deficit, that’s not what I voted for. The government has stake in 2 of the 3 American auto makers, several banks, and now we are looking at possibly several 100 billion to a trillion dollars more in a new health care system. Where are we going to get the $$$$ ? Are we going to start printing it and then have to pay $10 for a loaf of bread? or will we barrow from China and Middle east and become more dependant on other nations? Yes our system is not perfect but it could work if we stopped being so PC and became Americans again! Let’s fix our ever growing unemployment rate, pay down our debt, then think about health care. It seem as if our governments priorities are screwed up and our president wants’ to bankrupt us???:furious:
+1 :yes:
michbc3
Well-Known Member
Here's another thing to think about. I have a friend who is a chronic gambler. He borrowed enough money on credit cards to finance buying an old strip mall in Florida. The gamble was working out and his CCs were getting paid down. Then he decided to sell the mall and get into day trading. This gamble did not work out. So he borrowed more. Loser again. He did not file taxes for 5 years. The IRS has a judgement of $40,000 against him and his credit card debt is $80,000. He's not paying. Now if his gambles had payed off, he'd be laughing at you and me for being so dumb with our money. Instead, since he's now in debt, you and I will get to pay for his free health care. So why should we? People need to pay for their bad decisions in life as well as reap the benefits of what they've earned. That's the way nature works. Why fight it? If somebody voluntarily wants to subsidize this guy with their own money, they can do that too. It's called benevolence. Grabbing my money for this without my permission is simply legalized theft. I'm just as bad off as if a person had robbed me.
National Health Care... scared.???. .. Maybe.. Depends on who's sponsoring the Blog your all reading...
In Australia.. we have had NHC for decades.. cost 1% of your taxable income.. or you can elect to have NHC with supplimented private health care IF YOU WISH.. and GOLD health care on top of that .. ie your own room, a scotch with your dinner etc.. but for day to day averages.. seeing your regular family doctor... (your choice NOT some HMO's).. it costs zip.
My wife had our first child using Paid health cover.. cost us like US$2000.. charged for everything at full retail etc. The 2nd child.. same delivery.. but on NHC.. Zip cost.. and good care.. third the same.
About 4 years back I came down with spinal cancer.. given 14 days to 28 days to maintain a brain function if they could not isolate it and hit us SO hard with Chemo and radiation I dont want to think about it.. but was visited by more doctors, blood specialists, oncologists then ever thought possible..
.. and survived.. ALL ON NATIONAL HEALTH CARE.
We too do have immigrants.. by the bloody boat load .. we have the world third largest population of Indo-Chinese boat people.. and now middle eastern refo's.. they all get care.
NO ITS NOT GREAT ALL THE TIME.. but its not the end of the world... there is NO reason you should EVER have to work a 2nd job to pay for health care.. and there is DEFFINATELY (aka watch Michael Moore's "SICK" DVD) .. there is NO way a health care company can say NO to a specific treatment that MIGHT save your life..
Minimum rights for all .. Fair Justice, health care & a right to education that is NOT dumbed down to suit the state pass rate needed for the "no child left behind policy
Now.. American's.. talk about this among yourselves.. but start reading what goes on in other parts of the world (Britainm France, Australia, Canada to Cuba) .. before getting too scared.. YOU NEED TO DO SOMETHING.. YOUR COSTS ARE OUT OF CONTROL.
I visited LA on a Thursday about a year back.. got horridly sick.. cooped up on my hotel room.. by Sunday AM.. I was half ok but needed more help & in visiting a local Buena Park Hospital Casualty ward.. about 25 people in there.. mostly all probably illegals.. don't know .. but know that non-life threatening cases had an estimated 6 hr wait.. with or without private cover.
So I drove down to TJ (Mexico) crossed the border.. obtained the anti-biotic's needed and took some and then took it easy for the rest of the day. It was simplier then a Sunday under the current hospital system.
Anything has to be better.
Sorry for the long winded post... but Hope it makes sense to some.
In Australia.. we have had NHC for decades.. cost 1% of your taxable income.. or you can elect to have NHC with supplimented private health care IF YOU WISH.. and GOLD health care on top of that .. ie your own room, a scotch with your dinner etc.. but for day to day averages.. seeing your regular family doctor... (your choice NOT some HMO's).. it costs zip.
My wife had our first child using Paid health cover.. cost us like US$2000.. charged for everything at full retail etc. The 2nd child.. same delivery.. but on NHC.. Zip cost.. and good care.. third the same.
About 4 years back I came down with spinal cancer.. given 14 days to 28 days to maintain a brain function if they could not isolate it and hit us SO hard with Chemo and radiation I dont want to think about it.. but was visited by more doctors, blood specialists, oncologists then ever thought possible..
.. and survived.. ALL ON NATIONAL HEALTH CARE.
We too do have immigrants.. by the bloody boat load .. we have the world third largest population of Indo-Chinese boat people.. and now middle eastern refo's.. they all get care.
NO ITS NOT GREAT ALL THE TIME.. but its not the end of the world... there is NO reason you should EVER have to work a 2nd job to pay for health care.. and there is DEFFINATELY (aka watch Michael Moore's "SICK" DVD) .. there is NO way a health care company can say NO to a specific treatment that MIGHT save your life..
Minimum rights for all .. Fair Justice, health care & a right to education that is NOT dumbed down to suit the state pass rate needed for the "no child left behind policy
Now.. American's.. talk about this among yourselves.. but start reading what goes on in other parts of the world (Britainm France, Australia, Canada to Cuba) .. before getting too scared.. YOU NEED TO DO SOMETHING.. YOUR COSTS ARE OUT OF CONTROL.
I visited LA on a Thursday about a year back.. got horridly sick.. cooped up on my hotel room.. by Sunday AM.. I was half ok but needed more help & in visiting a local Buena Park Hospital Casualty ward.. about 25 people in there.. mostly all probably illegals.. don't know .. but know that non-life threatening cases had an estimated 6 hr wait.. with or without private cover.
So I drove down to TJ (Mexico) crossed the border.. obtained the anti-biotic's needed and took some and then took it easy for the rest of the day. It was simplier then a Sunday under the current hospital system.
Anything has to be better.
Sorry for the long winded post... but Hope it makes sense to some.
WH1_T-type
Active Member
Here's the problem though: THAT ISN'T HOW THE US GOV IS GOING TO RUN IT!!!!
It's gonna be HMO's for everyone. Other countries seem to be doing fine on it......now. Was it ALWAYS that good, or was there a learning period?
It's gonna be HMO's for everyone. Other countries seem to be doing fine on it......now. Was it ALWAYS that good, or was there a learning period?
WS6
Stay thirsty my friends
Oz...you make a compelling case ,that is until you cited Micheal Moore as a voice of reason. You'd been better off citing Joe Stalin,at least he put his might where his mouth is.
You are missing the bigger picture.Universal-single payer-socialized-rationed-controlled...or whatever you want to call European style health care goes against the fundamental psychy of the average American. We are a "do it yourself" bunch. We are not and have never been a "collective" society bent on leveling perceived social injustice. Those perceived injustices are largely fostered and foamented by a minority leftist population,who by in large, don't have any idea what it is like to mow thier own lawn.
We see this as an errosion of our personal liberties,which has been under assault for decades, and this is just a monster leap to the left that many,if not most, don't want to see happen.
While I'm glad you're happy with your plan, and it appears to have saved your life. I'd still rather have my,private, Blue Cross HMO that costs me $240 a month.My plan has saved my life too, physically and financially.
Health care is not a right as long as the population has free will to behave in whatever fashion they choose. For if the individual engages in poor lifestyle choices they would, by proxy, be limiting the health care rights of others who are not,Under our proposed national health care.
If you believe it is indeed a right, then you also believe that the "payer" has the right AND obligation to control your behavior, so as to not be a burden to the rest of society.
We are a country of learned folks,despite your distain for our education system. We have free will to make decisions about personal health,actions and success. Expanding the hammock of central planned societies does not elevate anyone, but rather lowers all of us.
We also reject the argument that since,the U.S., are not behaving like the rest of the world we need to "buck up and shut up" about socialism and all it's trappings.
With all due respect, France has not put a man on the moon through it's socialist gov't.
...
You are missing the bigger picture.Universal-single payer-socialized-rationed-controlled...or whatever you want to call European style health care goes against the fundamental psychy of the average American. We are a "do it yourself" bunch. We are not and have never been a "collective" society bent on leveling perceived social injustice. Those perceived injustices are largely fostered and foamented by a minority leftist population,who by in large, don't have any idea what it is like to mow thier own lawn.
We see this as an errosion of our personal liberties,which has been under assault for decades, and this is just a monster leap to the left that many,if not most, don't want to see happen.
While I'm glad you're happy with your plan, and it appears to have saved your life. I'd still rather have my,private, Blue Cross HMO that costs me $240 a month.My plan has saved my life too, physically and financially.
Health care is not a right as long as the population has free will to behave in whatever fashion they choose. For if the individual engages in poor lifestyle choices they would, by proxy, be limiting the health care rights of others who are not,Under our proposed national health care.
If you believe it is indeed a right, then you also believe that the "payer" has the right AND obligation to control your behavior, so as to not be a burden to the rest of society.
We are a country of learned folks,despite your distain for our education system. We have free will to make decisions about personal health,actions and success. Expanding the hammock of central planned societies does not elevate anyone, but rather lowers all of us.
We also reject the argument that since,the U.S., are not behaving like the rest of the world we need to "buck up and shut up" about socialism and all it's trappings.
With all due respect, France has not put a man on the moon through it's socialist gov't.
...
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ttanewyork
Well-Known Member
My job provides free health care for my family and I. With $5 copays for doctors and specialist, and $1 for drugs. Plus no refurals or waiting to see a specialist, or go for test. I think I would lose out with a national system. I could see it costing a lot, and getting service like fema.
I also have some friends and family in the medical field. They tell me they have a very large number of people from Canada that come over for health care. Mostly at childrens hospital and roswell park cancer institute. So how good could there national care be.
I also found the care in the active military was good. But not close to the care that I get now.
I also have some friends and family in the medical field. They tell me they have a very large number of people from Canada that come over for health care. Mostly at childrens hospital and roswell park cancer institute. So how good could there national care be.
I also found the care in the active military was good. But not close to the care that I get now.
michbc3
Well-Known Member
What some forget is that the concept of individal rights brings along with it individual responsibilities. The rights we celebrate are equal treatment under the law, not figuring out how to rob from the successful to provide for the parasitical.
The U.S. will let anybody here move to any country wherever they think they are going to get a better deal from the "system", be it health care or education. There are few takers, including the huckster/exploitationist Michael Moore.
A government "pass-through" is never as cheap as having them out of it all together. That concept in itself is another "tax". If the elite in government are so smart, why don't they give us truly free-market solutions instead of adding their control and another bureaucratic agency?
The current government has absolutely no respect for private property - which is supposed to be a fundamental "right" in this country. So while they'e got the helm, the social contract among citizens is almost totally broken down.
The U.S. will let anybody here move to any country wherever they think they are going to get a better deal from the "system", be it health care or education. There are few takers, including the huckster/exploitationist Michael Moore.
A government "pass-through" is never as cheap as having them out of it all together. That concept in itself is another "tax". If the elite in government are so smart, why don't they give us truly free-market solutions instead of adding their control and another bureaucratic agency?
The current government has absolutely no respect for private property - which is supposed to be a fundamental "right" in this country. So while they'e got the helm, the social contract among citizens is almost totally broken down.
You have a Choice.. like we do in Australia...so .. whats the beef...our government for decades has supported those minorities, socio-economic lower achievers etc...
A friend of mine recently died in Detroit after a long battle with cancer.. his primary assistance given in home care.. drink alot of fruit concentrate obtained from the local grocer.... Sorry but I was there.
IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY.. buy the cover.
A friend of mine recently died in Detroit after a long battle with cancer.. his primary assistance given in home care.. drink alot of fruit concentrate obtained from the local grocer.... Sorry but I was there.
IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY.. buy the cover.
WH1_T-type
Active Member
Because why do I have to pay for joe shmoe's health care? He can't afford it, so I have to pay for it?????
I don't care about joe. I have no interest in paying his health care. He gets a choice while I get stuck with the bill. Nice.
I don't care about joe. I have no interest in paying his health care. He gets a choice while I get stuck with the bill. Nice.
WS6
Stay thirsty my friends
Oz, I'm not understanding your post...what choice are your referring to? and what does "buy the cover" mean?
And I don' think I know anyone who hasn't lost a family member or friend to cancer and end stage hospice care is what it is. And that's a choice that the patient and family make(not a government accountant) when the technology can't meet the need.
And I don' think I know anyone who hasn't lost a family member or friend to cancer and end stage hospice care is what it is. And that's a choice that the patient and family make(not a government accountant) when the technology can't meet the need.
We have a choice now but we won't have a choice when this plan comes to action..
TTA 1077
Well-Known Member
Don't forget that it will cost almost another $trillion to implement this program. That’s on top of almost another trillion in bailouts that Bush and Obama handed out already. Where do we get the money without going into hyper inflation? We literally will have the next 2 generations paying it down!
Oz I understand that Australia has had this system for a while and it works well for you. But Americans for the last 233 years have been self sufficient responsible people and that has what has made this country so successful with REAL freedom. That is why people are always trying to come here to make a better life. To now sit back and watch our government grow and dictate our lives is not something we are used to. Large intrusive government is not usually good for freedom. If the government runs the health care system who pays for it? The tax payer! With only so much money going into the system, cuts will have to be made somewhere, usually by eliminating certain procedures or treatments, or by cutting compensation to the doctors, all of which would not be good. Our current system runs our health care under free market, which creates competition, which in turn pushes development in treatment and care. Sure not every one is entitled to it but that is what made this country, people being responsible and working hard to achieve their goals and dreams. We let the undeserving and the lazy take part on a massive level and that is what is killing us. We have become to politically correct. I truly believe that we should help the less fortunate, but that should be done by the individual, not the government forcing us by taking our hard earned money and giving it out. We as Americans should desire to help one another and provide through volunteering and donating through charity. That was the way it was done when this country began, until the "New Deal" arrived and people were rewarded for doing little.
Oz I understand that Australia has had this system for a while and it works well for you. But Americans for the last 233 years have been self sufficient responsible people and that has what has made this country so successful with REAL freedom. That is why people are always trying to come here to make a better life. To now sit back and watch our government grow and dictate our lives is not something we are used to. Large intrusive government is not usually good for freedom. If the government runs the health care system who pays for it? The tax payer! With only so much money going into the system, cuts will have to be made somewhere, usually by eliminating certain procedures or treatments, or by cutting compensation to the doctors, all of which would not be good. Our current system runs our health care under free market, which creates competition, which in turn pushes development in treatment and care. Sure not every one is entitled to it but that is what made this country, people being responsible and working hard to achieve their goals and dreams. We let the undeserving and the lazy take part on a massive level and that is what is killing us. We have become to politically correct. I truly believe that we should help the less fortunate, but that should be done by the individual, not the government forcing us by taking our hard earned money and giving it out. We as Americans should desire to help one another and provide through volunteering and donating through charity. That was the way it was done when this country began, until the "New Deal" arrived and people were rewarded for doing little.
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..hey .. I hear what your all saying.. and I should butt out.. but if your sick.. come to Australia.. We will help you - you may not get the top flight medical treatment and endless funds your HMO provides... and our employer DOES NOT PAY for it either.. .. we have the choice.. standard national health care.. OR.. pay some more and get priority treatment and a choice of Doctors.
It works, we have 22 million people.. also living in a democracy.. in a land mass border by sea..as big as the USA.. mineral rich, forced multicultural (which I don't really like..).. but ..hey.. I don't work a second job for my health care insurance.
It works, we have 22 million people.. also living in a democracy.. in a land mass border by sea..as big as the USA.. mineral rich, forced multicultural (which I don't really like..).. but ..hey.. I don't work a second job for my health care insurance.
Whats the use of living .. if your - in this modern age.. only living to pay for food and... medical coverage...
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
- Emma Lazarus, The New Colossus
"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
- Emma Lazarus, The New Colossus
