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starting problem

P

procharlie

Well-Known Member
I have an 89 TTA that will not start when it is warm. I can start it and it runs OK but if I turn it off it will not start until the engine cools off. I tried running it normally, stopping it in my drive, and when it would not start, I sprayed water over the engine, and soon it did start. So there is something around the engine that when it gets heated up will prevent the car from starting although it does not cause it from running after it has started. Is there a cold start injector on this car the might be the problem?
Thanks for any help you can provide.
 
This could be unrelated, but quite a few years ago I had a similar problem and it turned out to be a deteriorated spot in the underside of one of the vacuum hoses.....enough so there was a jagged hole in it about 2 inches long, and when the car was hot, it would suck hot air and not want to start until the engine completely cooled down......took me some time to figure out what was going on.....because it was on the underside of the rubber line, it took me awhile to find it because it wasn't obvious.
 
Update on my starting problem. I have had my car sitting outside for quite a while and lately when I went to start it, there was no response from turning the key - no noise from the starter. I went under the car and shorted the 12v main cable at the starter to the other electrical pin on the solenoid and it immediately activated and the starter began to turn, so the problem is not at the starter. It must be somewhere between the ignition switch and the solenoid, where it is not sending 12v down to the solenoid when I turn the key to start. I assume I have to get access to the wiring from the starter switch, probably removing the switch from the steering column, and I haven't found any videos showing how to do that for the '89 TTA. Can anyone help me access a video, if any, showing this, or is there any other way to check the operation of the starter system without removing the switch?
I have a wiring diagram of the fuse box wiring system that shows the ignition switch connections to the starter/solenoid. There is a FUSIBLE LINK in the line, and a PASS-KEY DECODER MODULE connection that must work, and the GEAR SELECTION SWITCH that must operate, so a number of places where the problem could be. I assume if the problem is the gear selection switch I would have to open the shifter console to get access to the gear selector switch. In the meantime I will start searching for the fusible link and pass-key decoder module to see if they are working.
Any help in locating these, or any other steps I could take, would be greatly appreciated.
 
procharlie said:
Update on my starting problem. I have had my car sitting outside for quite a while and lately when I went to start it, there was no response from turning the key - no noise from the starter. I went under the car and shorted the 12v main cable at the starter to the other electrical pin on the solenoid and it immediately activated and the starter began to turn, so the problem is not at the starter. It must be somewhere between the ignition switch and the solenoid, where it is not sending 12v down to the solenoid when I turn the key to start. I assume I have to get access to the wiring from the starter switch, probably removing the switch from the steering column, and I haven't found any videos showing how to do that for the '89 TTA. Can anyone help me access a video, if any, showing this, or is there any other way to check the operation of the starter system without removing the switch?
I have a wiring diagram of the fuse box wiring system that shows the ignition switch connections to the starter/solenoid. There is a FUSIBLE LINK in the line, and a PASS-KEY DECODER MODULE connection that must work, and the GEAR SELECTION SWITCH that must operate, so a number of places where the problem could be. I assume if the problem is the gear selection switch I would have to open the shifter console to get access to the gear selector switch. In the meantime I will start searching for the fusible link and pass-key decoder module to see if they are working.
Any help in locating these, or any other steps I could take, would be greatly appreciated.
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Bypass the Vats by grounding a wire behind the lower left kick panel. I forget which one now but do a search. Did this a few years ago with success
 
Thanks for the reply, but I don't know what the Vats is, and don't know why grounding a wire would allow 12v to get to the solenoid, and what wire would be able to be grounded unless it was disconnected to wherever it would go. I'm sorry but I don't know how to even try your suggestion.
 
Type in VATS using the search function here. Lots of threads about it and the no start issues it can cause. Not sure it will solve your problem, but I would certainly start there. Its an ignition immobilizer function built into the vehicle
 
I could start another chat but will try this first.
I have two TTAs, one that has the starting problem discussed above, and the other that has a different problem in that it appears it is not getting good fuel delivery. I had old gas in both my TTAs for quite a while and when I found out that was not good I drained the old gas and put fresh gas in the one that has the fuel problem. But now it will start and run a little but then dies. I found that the earlier owner had a lot of modifications done to the engine to give it more HP and one thing they did was add another fuel pump inline. That is a Bosch pump that was used in the Porsche 911 cars, but I found that it was not working. When I put 12v onto the power pins it clicked but didn't run, so its motor is apparently frozen. So I removed it and bought another Bosch pump - one with a different part number but supposedly was equivalent to the pump had. I installed it and tried to start the car and it did run for a few seconds but then stalled and the Bosch pump made a lot of noise. When I checked the system out I found the original TTA pump in the gas tank was running but when I put a gauge on the output fuel line, it didn't register any pressure when it was running, just allowed a little gas to come out, so I think I may need a new pump in the tank, Wnen I looked up info about the pump I found it is very difficult to replace it as the tank has to be dropped from under the car - a very hard process.
My question is does anyone know if the pump in the TTA would be any different that the pump used on the standard TransAm at that time? And I read that to make it easier to access the pump you could cut a hole in the top of the body panel above the tank, but some comments were that it was not a good idea to do that, maybe because it impacts the car value? Can anyone give me any help in deciding what to do now? I could buy another Pontiac pump but don't know which one to buy for sure.
Thanks for any help you can provide.
 
I am back to my other TTA that will not start. I want to check the ignition switch and its wiring and haven't found a good video for how to remove the switch. If any of you know of one I would appreciate a link to it. I don't want to mess something up by doing it wrong. I have pulled the steering wheel off the column but don't know what to do next.
Thanks
 
The ignition switch under dash on top of steering column. Have to unbolt column, drop it down, etc. Not easy to do but doable.
 
I have lowered the steering column and don’t see any switch on top of the column. I am trying to get access to the key socket wires, and possibly have to remove the socket if it is not working. Does anyone have any instructions for how to remove the key switch socket assembly? I am attaching a couple pics of the column to show you what I see. Do I have to remove the lever arms from the side of the column first? Does anyone have any instructions for removing the ignition key socket? Any help is appreciated.
 

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After looking into the column it appears that the key socket does not have any electrical connections, when I turn the key a metal rod that goes down the column moves, and is attached to an electrical terminal mounted on the column. Is that correct? so as long as the rod moves easily when I turn the key, I assume my electrical problem exists somewhere between that terminal and the starter solenoid. I have a wiring diagram that shows a wire from the battery goes through a fusible link, the ignition switch, a starter enable relay, then a gear selector switch, then to the solenoid. So it is any of these items that could be the problem, but I don't know how to locate them; it is very crowded under the dash and the fusible link and starter relay could be hidden somewhere. Can anyone help me locate these components so I can find if any of them are not working? I assume the gear selector switch would be down by the shifter under the center console, but don't know where to look for the others.
Thank you for any help you can provide.
 
I have not received any responses so far. I looked online for help to locate the starter enable relay and one source said the relay should be in a fuse box under the hood, but my car has no fuse box under the hood that I can find. I also looked behind the left side cover panel under the dash, some sources said the relay would be behind that, but I see nothing that looks like the relay, From what I have seen online the relay should be just a plug-in unit that has 4 pins, but I see nothing like that. If anyone can help me locate the relay I would appreciate it.
thanks
 
I just had this issue. It would start up fine, but would not restart if it was hot. I replaced the starter, as I did some research and found out the relay is on the starter, and it can heat up and cause one of the connections inside to not work properly. So far no issues since I replaced the starter.
 
I found the starter relay, it was behind the left kick panel, but someone had covered the hole where the relay was with black sticky stuff, so I didn't see it earlier, but when I removed that black stuff I found the relay. I checked the relay and found that if I shorted the heavy gage green/white wire to the large yellow wire, the starter would work when I turned the key to START! I read that you can bypass the key decoder that activates this switch, so I put a jumper between the two large wires and the starter is now working. I assume the key decoder module is not working, but I will not try to fix that now.
But, now that I found out that there is no wiring problem with the steering wiring , I am re-assembling my steering column - I wish I had never taken it apart in the first place. I got it partly together, but there is a black plastic ring that goes somewhere behind the steering wheel, over the control mechanisms, that I don't remember where it goes. I haven't found any assembly diagrams for the steering wheel that show this ring - all the ones I have seen are for the steering wheel that does not have the radio controls on the center of the wheel hub. I am enclosing some pics showing the black ring, and the steering column and the radio control assembly that goes over the steering wheel. The black ring goes somewhere between these parts but I didn't take any pics when I pulled the wheel off the column and I don't remember exactly where that ring goes, and which way it goes. I would appreciate if anyone knows how this ring goes on the assembly I would really appreciate it.
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Thanks,
Charlie
 
If I do get the car to start, I will check to see if it still has the problem of not starting when it is warmed up. If so, I will look into changing the starter as babbyk stated above. I will give an ujpdate after I get the steering wheel re-assembled. I hope at least the car will run OK after sitting so long. I will put new gas in the tank with some SeaFoam liquid added to clean out the fuel system - lets hope.
 
I found where the black ring goes, it snaps on top of the metal ring in a specific position - see pic, so now I can re-assemble the steering wheel.
 

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One more question: in trying to re-assemble the horn ring parts I have a problem in that I don't remember where the snap ring goes that holds the parts together. I have some pics that show the two rings, the yellow plastic one with the sliding contacts, and the black metal one that goes on top of it. I thought the snap ring went on top of the black metal ring, but I have had a very hard time pushing the assembly down far enough to get the ring into the groove way at the bottom of the column. Does the snap ring go over the plastic ring before the black ring is attached, or does it go on top of the black ring. If so, it takes a lot of pressure to get the whole assembly to push down far enough so the snap ring goes into its groove. Does anyone have a good assembly diagram for this steering assembly on the TTA that has the radio controls on the center pad of the steering wheel?
 
I got it together, finally. The snap ring goes over the black metal ring and it is very hard to push it down on the column so the ring can snap into a groove on the column. So it is working now, I have the steering wheel mounted, and the car will start, but only if I squirt some engine starter fluid into the intake and it will run for a couple seconds then stall. Because the car has not been run for years it might have blocked injectors, so that's the next thing to check. I did check for fuel pressure at the fuel rail, and it went to 65 psi as soon as I turned on the key, so it is getting fuel to the engine. I will let you know if I get it going better.
 
I disconnected the fuel line from the rail on the engine and attached a hose to the line. When I turned the key on the fuel came rushing out of the hose, so I don't think there is a problem with fuel supply. I disconnected the fuel rail from the intake manifold, demated the injector wires, and was able to lift off the fuel rail with the injectors attached to the rail. Can anyone help me with how to test and/or clean the injectors? Can I just put 12v on the connector, if that would open the injector, and see if it will pass fuel? Is the polarity of the 12v important? What would be a good cleaner to use if they are dirty? I have acetone, MEK, mineral spirits, WD40; is there a better cleaner than these?
Thanks for any help provided.
 
Looking at videos for how to clean injectors, one shows that you can remove the filter at the input of the injector and clean it. Does the TTA injector have a removable filter? I have looked online for what injectors to get. I found no references to injectors for the TTA 3.8l turbo engine. Are they the same as some other engine injectors? I tried to remove what I think is the filter on one of my injectors but I couldn't get it out. Is there a way to do that?
 
procharlie said:
Looking at videos for how to clean injectors, one shows that you can remove the filter at the input of the injector and clean it. Does the TTA injector have a removable filter? I have looked online for what injectors to get. I found no references to injectors for the TTA 3.8l turbo engine. Are they the same as some other engine injectors? I tried to remove what I think is the filter on one of my injectors but I couldn't get it out. Is there a way to do that?
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Same injectors as GN
 
You could take the injectors to a speed shop and have them flow test the injectors. I have had that done before. That way you will know that they are flowing and at the correct rate.
 
I looked into the injector and saw the filter, so I cleaned all the injectors with fuel cleaner and tested them for flow and they all squirted out fuel very well, so I re-installed the injectors and was able to start the car and it ran very well! I will take it out for a spin soon, but it appears I may have a slight short as the battery is going dead when the car is sitting. I checked and my multimeter shows about 0.3 amps flow when the car is off, so I have to check all the wiring/connections to find the problem. This seems like a never ending project.
 
I think I probably have to get new fuel pump and/or tank for at least one of my cars, but when looking for a tank I found only ones with either 14 or 15 or 16 gal capacities, but I found dome info that said my cars had 15.5 gal capacity, so I don't know what tank to buy. Can anyone help me with what tank would fit my cars? I don't know if the 14 gal or 16 gal ones would mount correctly. Most of the ones supposedly for the 1989 Firebird are listed as 14 gal, but I don't want to get one that is smaller and would not mount securely. I would appreciate any input on what tank I should get, and I don't want to spend more than needed. Some of the tanks come without the filler neck attached; is it difficult to take the one off my present tank and attach it to a new one if I can save some money that way?
 
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